I'm thoroughly confused with the responses here. I've always viewed the Video Game Industry as somewhat unique, in that it was all about substance over style -- in other words, if you could produce an impressive portfolio, no one would care where (or if) you went to school.
It frustrates me to read, again and again, especially by those that DID NOT go to college, that a degree is necessary. I can only speak for myself, but (humility aside) I went to a very good school, went for a CS degree, and would up with just that -- a very, very expensive degree and 4-year incubator. I did not wind up with a job in the games industry. Yes, I'm bitter. Yes, I mostly have myself to blame, but that's besides the point.
"YES. YOU NEED A DEGREE. YOU SHOULD GET A 4-YEAR DEGREE"
Why? What is it that you all think college provides, that you couldn't learn from a book?
Some thoughts:
1) Most games are programmed in C++. Most CS students will not end up working in games or in an environment where efficiency is king, so many universities now cater to the higher-level languages used in business, like Java.
2) The price of your education is supposedly justified because you are learning from experts. With the absence of a select few names, most CS professors are NOT experts on anything game related (except AI and "graphics"). Even if there is a games course at your school, the professor has not necessarily worked in the games industry.
Someone pointed out earlier in this thread that a degree is only worth what you put in. I agree 100%, and that is why I lay the bulk of the blame on myself. But, if you are 17, know you want to program games, and are motivated enough to milk your college for all it's worth, how are those 4 years going to be more valuable to you than simply learning on your own? If you're reading this, you already know the game resources that exist on the Internet. How would college be better than:
1) Picking up the handful of programming books you need, that are actually recommended by game programmers.
2) Moving to a gaming hotbed, joining the IGDA chapter in the area.
3) Programming your own games
You'll wind up with profession-specific knowledge, contacts in the industry, and a portfolio. You'll be local to apply to game companies (take a testing role while you're studying on your own). You'll also do it for a lot less than college would have been, which, if you were so inclined, you could probably use to have an AI/Graphics expert mentor you.
Like I said, I'm confused -- I can think of only a few justifications for college:
1) Safer. If a CS graduate changes his mind, he'll have an easier time finding another job.
2) Pay. I'd hope the game industry is different, but IT companies will pay you less without a degree. Again, it's the safer route. If you don't go into games, you'll get a better salary with a degree.
3) "Life Experience". Maybe you think its necessary to take the non-gaming required courses most colleges have. Maybe you think its important to be in that environment. Maybe you think there's some great value to binge drinking and frat parties...
And honestly? If I didn't know someone, I'd tell them to go to college too. It would take a hell of a lot of motivation to do it all on their own, and I don't place that kind of belief in strangers. But this forum is about breaking into the games industry, not how to play it safe, make a lot of money, and be well-rounded.
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Do I need a degree?
Quote: Original post by SpriteChildIf you are really, really, really motivated, you migth get as much out of the book as you get out of the college courses. In fact, you will probably get a lot more out of the book, and your explorations of the topic beyond what the book offers.
"YES. YOU NEED A DEGREE. YOU SHOULD GET A 4-YEAR DEGREE"
Why? What is it that you all think college provides, that you couldn't learn from a book?
But most people don't have that sort of drive or discipline. University forces you to sit down and become acquainted with the topic, offers insights that you won't find in the book, and exposure to other smart, motivated people you can bounce your ideas off.
But above all, university offers courses outside of the CS department. Honestly, if you go to university and only take CS/Math/Physics courses, then you missed half the point: go take a history course, an art course, a philosophy course. Nobody wants to work with a robot, no matter how much of a wizard they may be at C++ [smile]
Quote: Some thoughts:Really? Most of our courses (apart from the intro course in Java, the programming languages course in Scheme, and the assembly course in x86/SPARC assembly) are taught in plain old C.
1) Most games are programmed in C++. Most CS students will not end up working in games or in an environment where efficiency is king, so many universities now cater to the higher-level languages used in business, like Java.
That said, no course is going to teach you how to write idiomatic, micro-optimised C++, but that is what learning on your own is for - I learned a fair bit of that kicking around GameDev.
Quote: 2) The price of your education is supposedly justified because you are learning from experts. With the absence of a select few names, most CS professors are NOT experts on anything game related (except AI and "graphics"). Even if there is a games course at your school, the professor has not necessarily worked in the games industry.In my view, game development topics are some of the very topics that you can easily pick up from a book, or the many web resources around the net - but only if you have a strong grounding in programming, networking, OS fundamentals, etc.
Quote: Like I said, I'm confused -- I can think of only a few justifications for college:In today's economy, that is a pretty big checkmark right there.
1) Safer. If a CS graduate changes his mind, he'll have an easier time finding another job.
Quote: 2) Pay. I'd hope the game industry is different, but IT companies will pay you less without a degree. Again, it's the safer route. If you don't go into games, you'll get a better salary with a degree.It is possible that you take a salary hit for lacking a degree, but most likely, if you have the requisite skills, you can negotiate the salary you deserve.
However, the degree also makes sure that an HR drone doesn't trash your resume before anyone reads it. That right there may be worth 4 years of your life...
Quote: 3) "Life Experience". Maybe you think its necessary to take the non-gaming required courses most colleges have. Maybe you think its important to be in that environment. Maybe you think there's some great value to binge drinking and frat parties...Ixnay on the drinking, frat parties and dorm lifestyle. But the liberal arts curriculum, yes. You would be surprised just how much a few courses on higher mathematics and philosophy can change your outlook on programming.
University is good for making lots of contacts, you can't get from your chair at home, these contacts on forums aren't real contacts, and you can only get these, if you learn for your own IMHO.
Quote: Original post by SpriteChild
I'm thoroughly confused with the responses here. I've always viewed the Video Game Industry as somewhat unique, in that it was all about substance over style -- in other words, if you could produce an impressive portfolio, no one would care where (or if) you went to school.
That was true 5-10 years ago. It's not anymore. If you've worked on and published 5+ AAA titles, then yes no one cares about your degree. If you have a napkin resume: i.e. you worked on World of Warcraft, Diablo II and Halo, yeah no one cares about your degree.
However, if you have not shipped several very successful or famous titles you will almost certainly not make it past the resume screening without a diploma. There are obviously exceptions, but much like there are exceptions to the rule "you will never win the lottery" it's not good to count on those exceptions [smile]
A college degree is the new high school degree: minimum bar to entry in 99.9% of cases.
The point most people are making here is not "a degree makes you a better programmer" the point we are making is that "a degree is required to get hired".
-me
Quote: Original post by SpriteChild
I'm thoroughly confused with the responses here. I've always viewed the Video Game Industry as somewhat unique, in that it was all about substance over style -- in other words, if you could produce an impressive portfolio, no one would care where (or if) you went to school.
Where you went to school, no.
IF you went to school, absolutely yes.
Unless you've already been working as a professional programmer for several years and have an impressive portfolio, the degree is essential.
No matter how you've always viewed things.
Quote: Original post by swiftcoder
Really? Most of our courses (apart from the intro course in Java, the programming languages course in Scheme, and the assembly course in x86/SPARC assembly) are taught in plain old C.
For your reading pleasure:
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html
http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/3722876
Quote: Ixnay on the drinking, frat parties and dorm lifestyle. But the liberal arts curriculum, yes. You would be surprised just how much a few courses on higher mathematics and philosophy can change your outlook on programming.
You have me laughing to myself here. I majored in CS, minored in Philosophy. Realistically, I think understanding why people enjoy a game as stupid as Beer Pong is ultimately more useful, from a games perspective, than knowing Kant.
Quote: The point most people are making here is not "a degree makes you a better programmer" the point we are making is that "a degree is required to get hired".
Other threads in this forum will tell the poster to "get an education", not "take care of the prerequisites." But it is helpful to know that ultimately that is how it is viewed.
Quote: Original post by SpriteChildI am aware of both those articles, and I think they tie in nicely with my point. While a bunch of schools did go the 'dumbed down' route, there are still plenty that haven't - mine included. If one can't hack together a parallel program that scales seamlessly across a hundred node cluster, implemented in plain old C with no supporting libraries beyond BSD sockets, by the time one graduates, then one probably didn't do well here.Quote: Original post by swiftcoderFor your reading pleasure:
Really? Most of our courses (apart from the intro course in Java, the programming languages course in Scheme, and the assembly course in x86/SPARC assembly) are taught in plain old C.
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html
http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/3722876
Quote:I was being a little facetious, and to be honest I was more referring to the formal logic courses than the transcendentalists.Quote: Ixnay on the drinking, frat parties and dorm lifestyle. But the liberal arts curriculum, yes. You would be surprised just how much a few courses on higher mathematics and philosophy can change your outlook on programming.You have me laughing to myself here. I majored in CS, minored in Philosophy. Realistically, I think understanding why people enjoy a game as stupid as Beer Pong is ultimately more useful, from a games perspective, than knowing Kant.
However, the fact that you can discuss Kant intelligently, gives you an edge in many areas of our (admittedly elitist) society. Game development is not just sitting in a cubicle outputting code (though one can approach it that way) - at some point, one has to leave the cubicle and discuss player motivation with the designer, tone and timbre with the composer, and light and mood with the artist. If one doesn't have at least a glancing familiarity with psychology, music theory and art, these are going to be short and one-sided conversations [smile]
I go to a university and its nice as You get to meet like-minded people, which really makes a hard discipline also of fun. Even though I do not see myself working in the industry being a CS/Math major really covers all the basic's you may see in game development minus the industry specific stuff. I'm doing a concentration in graphics which taught me most of the basic linear algebra and graphic stuff you may encounter in a beginning 3d programming book. If what people say are true and that most companies are only willing to hire people with a degree then you should def go for it.
Quote: Original post by Phlogiston
I'm not eligible for any real financial aid because my crazy parents are semi-wealthy, but I do not live with them or receive any money from them.
If you do not live with your parents, then they can not claim you as a dependent. Thus, you do not have to use them when applying for financial aid. The only factor should be how much you make. As long as there are no tax ties (dependent status claimed on you by anyone), then you are in the clear. Reapply and simply state you live on your own.
Sorry, but I have to raise a red flag on these people claiming that online tutorials and a few books are enough to bypass a formal education. As was mentioned, schools put you through everything. If a particular section is easy or "old news", so be it. Blast through it. However, you will always run into that topic you tried so hard to avoid. School not only helps you become familiar with that topic, it makes you experience it through homework and/or labs.
I have worked with both varieties of programmers: the ones who go to school, and the ones who tough it out through tutorials/books. The difference is night and day. Working with students is a much more straightforward experience. I can rely on his/her knowledge of math, algorithms, code structure, etc. and work through any problem. We can bounce ideas off one another and find a strong solution. Non-students? They "know everything". I cannot propose my solution because they "know a better way of doing it". After a little digging, I usually discover that this programmer skipped studying a particular algorithm or that he/she was misinformed into believing that STL or OOP is of the devil. They know a little bit of everything but a whole lot of nothing.
Living off online tutorials is dangerous. Without the proper background knowledge, you have no idea how much validity there is to the tutorial. Tutorials should supplement your existing knowledge, not serve as its foundation. Books are generally safer in that they are more often more thorough and produced from reliable sources.
I will say this about students: if they are too focused on that 4.0 GPA, they are generally useless. They never go home and experiment with what they learned and gain the necessary experience to apply it in the future. In some senses, these people are worse than those who never went to college, but at least they have that degree, and companies look for that.
In short... go to school. Stop pretending you can just weasel your way into a good position by goofing around at home with the Internet as your guide. If you're going to skip school, I really hope you have a job offer and a paycheck to back yourself up. If not, go to school and goof around between classes. You'd be surprised how much you can learn while doing homework. :)
I have worked with both varieties of programmers: the ones who go to school, and the ones who tough it out through tutorials/books. The difference is night and day. Working with students is a much more straightforward experience. I can rely on his/her knowledge of math, algorithms, code structure, etc. and work through any problem. We can bounce ideas off one another and find a strong solution. Non-students? They "know everything". I cannot propose my solution because they "know a better way of doing it". After a little digging, I usually discover that this programmer skipped studying a particular algorithm or that he/she was misinformed into believing that STL or OOP is of the devil. They know a little bit of everything but a whole lot of nothing.
Living off online tutorials is dangerous. Without the proper background knowledge, you have no idea how much validity there is to the tutorial. Tutorials should supplement your existing knowledge, not serve as its foundation. Books are generally safer in that they are more often more thorough and produced from reliable sources.
I will say this about students: if they are too focused on that 4.0 GPA, they are generally useless. They never go home and experiment with what they learned and gain the necessary experience to apply it in the future. In some senses, these people are worse than those who never went to college, but at least they have that degree, and companies look for that.
In short... go to school. Stop pretending you can just weasel your way into a good position by goofing around at home with the Internet as your guide. If you're going to skip school, I really hope you have a job offer and a paycheck to back yourself up. If not, go to school and goof around between classes. You'd be surprised how much you can learn while doing homework. :)
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